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Submissive or a doormat

topic posted Tue, June 10, 2008 - 6:45 AM by  Unsubscribed
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I really think the doormat discussion should be it's own thread.

I just want to add to this thought that back in my on-line days it seemed like every Dom I talked to would use the "I don't want a doormat" thing when talking to someone new. I actually got tired of hearing that word used.

While I do believe their are submissives who believe they are doormats--I also believe there are Doms who treat non-doormat types AS a doormat. And what about those folks who like to be treated like crap because it turns them on? Are they just doormat wannabees?
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  • Re: Submissive or a doormat

    Tue, June 10, 2008 - 8:31 AM
    Thank God I wasn't the only one who thought that. I too got tired with that statement after dating a couple Doms who said it, but in all reality treated me like shit.

    When the girl's wanted to be treated like that, is it a 24/7 type of thing or is it just a majority of the time? I also think a big thing would be the Dom's true feels. Does he treat her that way because he really thinks she is worthless, or does he do it because he knows she enjoys it?
  • Re: Submissive or a doormat

    Tue, June 10, 2008 - 11:30 AM
    There is a huge difference between humiliation and treating someone as a doormat. A lot of people enjoy humiliation some or part of the time. A doormat is dysfunctional.

    Domina
    • Re: Submissive or a doormat

      Tue, June 10, 2008 - 5:11 PM
      I guess when I hear of 'treating someone like doormat' I think of someone who has no worth, no value to the one doing the treating. I might wipe my muddy boots on my slave, use her as a doormat, yet not think of her as being one with no worth. I have absolutely no use for a slave who brings no value of her own to the relationship.
  • Re: Submissive or a doormat

    Tue, June 10, 2008 - 5:53 PM
    Appearances can be deceptive. From the outside, the fact that someone beats and torments another person could look like assault and battery. I believe it is easy to judge a book by its cover, and I'm sure I do it at times as well though I try to catch myself. I think the only way to distinguish between a good and a bad situation is to ask the question "Is it a happy situation, or a sad situation for either party involved?". Sometimes even consent isn't a good indicator, as there are people who willfully go back to the abusive boyfriend/girlfriend so they can get their jaw broken again. Thus, for myself I use happiness and happiness alone as the litmus paper of "abuse or not" rather than consent. I bet there are people out there who actually get off on being a doormat in every sense of the word. If it honestly makes them happy, more power to them. It's not really my kink exactly, but I'm curious as to how a person like that would be. I am too used to enabling a person and looking after them for this to be second nature to me but it seems hot enough that I'd be curious as to how it would work to be with someone who would be happier to be treated with disregard, than to be uplifted in any particular way.
    • Re: Submissive or a doormat

      Tue, June 10, 2008 - 6:46 PM
      If you're not going to get it, you're never going to get it. Someone who is unable to function without a keeper is not a whole human being. So suppose you get someone and break their spirit so that they can't function without you. Then after years of taking care of this person, you move on or die. Who's supposed to take care of your mess, then?
      • Re: Submissive or a doormat

        Tue, June 10, 2008 - 11:00 PM
        Who said this means breaking their spirit? The phrase "My other half" comes to mind, when talking about someone who isn't a whole person. When exactly did it become so bad to consider one's self unfulfilled without a person who compliments and brings out the best in them? I for one don't think it's such a bad thing if "I don't get it" or if "You don't get it", as, wouldn't it be boring if we all "got it" so well that we all did the same things for the same reasons?
    • Re: Submissive or a doormat

      Tue, June 10, 2008 - 9:04 PM
      Charles,

      Which do you find more impressive, the person who trains a poodle or a lion?

      Does a child look at a toddler and laugh at the silly decisions they make? Does a teenager look at a child and think the same thing? Perspective comes with time, faster for some, slower for others.

      For you, perspective came much faster than it did for me, you are in a far better place at 32 that I was in. However, I have 10 MORE years of growth than you and perhaps I can see things you don't, Domina has only a couple more years than I but has FAR more wisdom than I.

      You can't see it but SOME of those unruly subs owned by someone you think of as a fake/weak dominant are not little poodles that are poorly trained but are instead LIONS who submit not because they must but because they choose to.

      So, what do you want to be, a trainer of poodles or a trainer of LIONS?

      THAT is the point about doormats, ANYONE can fucking dominant them, do you want to be just the next anyone? I have ZERO interest in that, I want to be the ONLY one who has been able to tame my partner. I haven't turned her into a docile domesticated pet, she is a wild animal, barely restrained but ALIVE with spirit and fire and so "taming" is a relative word here.

      The choice is yours...
      • Re: Submissive or a doormat

        Tue, June 10, 2008 - 11:25 PM
        Michael, thank you for your compliments. I have been in quite a few good, and not so good relationships over the last decade. Yes I want someone with fire and courage, though I don't really care if she gets it from me or if she had it to begin with so long as the result for me is the same. I don't suppose I really care if someone is a poodle or a lion tamer, and I know that is not the most popular view. In my experience, the biggest factor on how difficult someone is or isn't to train and keep is how secure and generally capable of trusting they are when trust is merited. The bigger the scaredy cat, the harder she is to train, as living in fear and having paranoia make things harder not easier. I have been in 9 D/s relationships, if I count those I dated and didn't live with. Some lasted as long as four years, and they spanned the range from D/s, to M/s, to Daddy/daughter archetypes. During this time, I discovered that more than a few of them might bluster about how "I am woman, hear me roar!" but as some will know, those who blow the horn loudest are in fact the least secure. My studies of D/s range beyond those of the BDSM bent, to examples of pecking orders in the animal kingdom. It has been found numerous times, that a non-alpha animal can be placed in a leadership role and they can in fact do leadership things. However, the stress and strain on the beta is huge and this poor creature does not feel secure. A beta can be an incredible, and loyal creature. They can hunt, fight, and nurture. There is no disability to being a beta, except that without an alpha the stress is extreme. There is no beta roaring creature, who really wants to be a beta roaring creature except perhaps to convince those around him/her not to see the fear and tear that creature to bits. I realize this is rambling a little bit, but my point is that there is nothing weak about a beta nor is there anything wrong with a beta needing an alpha in order to feel secure and safe. Nature designed us this way. Once we look past the "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" of our society, and see how much we resemble animals in certain ways, things really pop into focus. Oh, and the whole "I'm an alpha sub/slave" business really doesn't make sense to me except that betas tend to try to imitate alpha behaviour. That explains for example why bizarre Hollywood fashions are considered "Must have/must do" by society in general which is of course primarily composed of beta types. Most people need someone to follow. The president, the pope, god, whoever. Take away god for example, and people become terrified. We'll even follow a monster like Hitler, so long as we can feel safely led.
        • Re: Submissive or a doormat

          Wed, June 11, 2008 - 7:24 AM
          My relationship has been going on for twelve years, and I'll celebrate my 10th wedding anniversary in a couple of weeks.

          A doormat is someone who is dysfunctional. No one said anything about preferring to be in a relationship. What we are discussing is someone who can't function without a relationship and who has no thoughts, ideas, or emotions not tied to the relationship. If I dropped dead tomorrow, both my slave and my submissive would mourn, but they'd get on with their lives. They don't need me in order to deal with life. They are both people who can function on their own.

          Domina
          • Re: Submissive or a doormat

            Wed, June 11, 2008 - 4:31 PM
            Congratulations on your 10th, Domina. The extreme you are talking about, I doubt it exists except as a concept. The distinction I make is that perhaps someone can't function nearly as well w/o this in their life, not that they are unable to function at all. Function however, is for machines in my mind and much more important than that is happiness. Someone might not be very happy without someone owning them. Is that really a sign that the person is defective and dysfunctional to you?
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              Re: Submissive or a doormat

              Wed, June 11, 2008 - 4:46 PM
              I've got to pull out the dictionary on this one:

              "one that submits without protest to abuse or indignities"...is a doormat according to the on-line Merriam Webster. So this sounds like it takes two to make a doormat, really. One to dish out the abuse and one that accepts it.
            • Re: Submissive or a doormat

              Wed, June 11, 2008 - 10:21 PM
              Charles, there are dysfunctional people in the scene. When we talk about doormats, we're discussing those people, with no self esteem, you have no life outside of their slavery and they really can't function without having their dom make their decisions. Often this is someone who's been so beaten down by abuse, mental or mental and physical, but sometimes it's someone who comes from a background of abuse, drug use, etc.

              Of course people in M/s relationships prefer to be in M/s relationships to being on their own. But a dysfunctional doormat of this type needs professional help no matter how happy they act in their relationship. It's not healthy to be unable to function outside of a relationship.

              Domina
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                Re: Submissive or a doormat

                Thu, June 12, 2008 - 6:18 AM
                But Domina, the doormat types are also the newbies out there exploring BDSM and looking for a relationship. THAT is the part that scares the poo out of me. There are a goodly number of wannabee Doms that think they're God's gift. I think those are the ones that always said "I don't want a doormat." I just wonder how they would have recognized one if they saw one.

                When I met my Master my self-esteem was pretty much in the dumps. I am a strong woman, though, and would not have considered myself a doormat. I can kick ass if need be.

                I sure never went into this relationship because of that problem, however being in a healthy D/s then M/s relationship actually did a world of good for my self-esteem (and I can still kick ass.) However, what if I'd made a wrong choice in Doms? Maybe I would have been turned into a doormat type.
                • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                  Thu, June 12, 2008 - 10:40 AM
                  Excellent point, Kelly! What if your owner had yielded to popular opinion (as I clearly don't, though I do listen), and said "Kelly has crap for self esteem, so she must be bad slave material"? This kind of popular opinion sets up abusive situations, because it leaves you without the option of being with responsible dominants (that is, if they yield to popular opinion), and you are more likely to wind up with wannabee Doms or other newbies who aren't connected with the scene. I absolutely agree that self esteem should be nurtured, and it seems like that is exactly how it happened for you.
                • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                  Thu, June 12, 2008 - 10:54 AM
                  Certainly my husband was extremely shy when we met. He couldn't look at me and talk, at the same time. And you are right. Some of the people looking for relationships are undoubtedly very low in self esteem. But a good dominant would increase their self esteem and teach them to be more self possessed. A bad dom would be one who takes advantage of this and keeps them in "doormat state" and adds to it, so that you still have a dysfunctional mess of a human being. And of course, those are the ones who dump this poor creature when something prettier or more interesting comes along.

                  A dom who keeps someone in that state is not a dom, but an abuser.

                  Domina
              • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                Thu, June 12, 2008 - 10:35 AM
                If you've read about cults, brainwashing, and indoctrination techniques; you may notice that people exposed to this experience a change in their paradigm. What is most interesting to me about this, is that while it is quite possible to change a person such that their views and behaviour completely change versus before they were brainwashed, once they leave the environment that set this up for them their views revert back to the pre-brainwashing ones. Thus, someone who is not in an M/s relationship may become entirely dependent on their owner in certain ways but revert back once leaving the relationship. As far as someone being from a background where they are of no account before they entered M/s (drug abusers, irresponsible, etc), does that seem like someone who would be successful at living up to the role of consentual slave? I certainly would be cautious about trusting such a person to do what is needed. The trust and honesty required for M/s are exceptional, and not what I would expect to come easy for someone who is used to being mistreated. As far as it being a crutch for some people, I suppose that is possible. Is it then also to be scorned as a crutch when someone joins the military, joins a monestary for example because dealing with "regular life" is just a failing proposition for them?
  • Re: Submissive or a doormat

    Thu, June 12, 2008 - 6:28 PM
    I agree with a lot of people here. I would say that a "doormat" is someone who may have had bad experiences in his or her life, in or out of the lifestyle, and due to those experiences has extremely low self esteem and is looking for anyone who can make them feel better.

    I would say that a good dominant would take that person and help build their self esteem, and help them become the person they want to be (I personally feel that a happy well rounded slave is more of service to me than a broken down, completely dependent ,can't function without me slave).

    A not so good dominant would be one who takes advantage of the low self esteem and uses it to mold the person into what and who the dominant wants, not giving any consideration to what the actual person (once their self esteem has improved) may need. The dominant would probably assure the person how great they are, but make sure to keep them in a place where they don't feel confident outside of the relationship.
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    Re: Submissive or a doormat

    Sun, June 15, 2008 - 1:33 AM
    OK...confusion is making my head hurt. Not so clear on the whole animal kingdom and alpha vs beta thing nor do I agree at all with a happiness test that indicates healthy vs unhealthy relationships.

    Being a doormat in OR out of the BDSM lifestyle means for me continuously taking on often abusive behavior and not being able to set up healthy boundaries. I too have had the whole "I don't want a doormat for a slave" conversation with different Masters only for them to be disturbed or offended that I had a brain, an opinion and a point of view. Their bubbles were busted when I didn't automatically agree or say Yes Sir to every thought or opinion that came out of their mouth. The much harder action to do sometimes is to disagree because it is for the good of the whole.

    In the original post, Kelly asked what about those folks who like to be treated like crap because it turns them on? *shrugs* hard to say. I'm pretty much if that's your thing, oook then. But I'm not going to participate and if asked, will I agree that it's a good thing for either person involved with that type of behavior.
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      Re: Submissive or a doormat

      Sun, June 15, 2008 - 7:27 AM
      "Their bubbles were busted when I didn't automatically agree or say Yes Sir to every thought or opinion that came out of their mouth."

      Wish I'd said this--it's so true.

      Is there a word for those Dominants who are like that? Do they enable a submissive to continue their doormat personality?
      • Re: Submissive or a doormat

        Sun, June 15, 2008 - 10:18 AM
        I had a Master once who when I voiced an opinion that was different than his I was told I needed to change it. If I didn't change it or refused to change it I would get punished. What it came down to was he wanted me to have the exact same thoughts, ideas, and views that he did. That is not something I am willing to do in any relationship for any reason. That just doesn't make for a good relationship.
        • Re: Submissive or a doormat

          Sun, June 15, 2008 - 10:22 AM
          I forgot to add that I not only do I think they enable their submissive to be a doormat, but if there not already one, they try to make them one.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Submissive or a doormat

        Sun, June 15, 2008 - 1:37 PM
        I don't know if it's even a conscious thing Kelly or if because the nature of the beast and the "image" is soo important to maintain depending on where you are living and with whom you associate with. I will say this, the good ones, even though they had bubbles busted, would usually come back and say to me "Hey, you were right" or "Hmmm...that gave me a lot to think about". Those who could not see the situation for what it was said I was not a twu slave and never could be. *insert rolling of eyes here*

        I do believe there are those who claim Dominance who are insecure as people and have low self-esteem or too much inflated self-esteem that they only can handle "yes" people around them. If this type of person pairs up with a doormat (and they often do find each other) then that might work for them in the moment. My issue with that is ultimately it's not healthy for either person - however, each person has their own path to travel.
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          Re: Submissive or a doormat

          Sun, June 15, 2008 - 1:47 PM
          jodi, i once had a husband that wanted me to always agree and share his opinion (he was homophobic for one thing and thought i should think being gay was wrong, too). Needless to say, i'm no longer with that man.
          • Re: Submissive or a doormat

            Sun, June 15, 2008 - 2:27 PM
            Kelly I am very glad to hear you're not with him. I do not believe them to be good people to be around. Not good for ones mental health.
            • Re: Submissive or a doormat

              Mon, June 16, 2008 - 6:26 PM
              In trying to sort through the concept we fetish people have of the term, I sought out my old friend Webster for advice. See, words are a funny thing in that they contain so many meanings that it is difficult to understand their meaning when taken out of context or taken without the person's tone of voice and facial expressions. They do however have at least some meaning, so I decided to dig a little bit. I recall talking to someone I played with about how she had gotten into the scene. At times in the past, she used to beg them in the bedroom "Abuse me". Why this choice of words I asked her, did she really believe it was abuse she was seeking? No, to her it was not abuse but in their eyes the only way they could fathom what she wanted was to term it as abuse. With this perspective in mind, I read on.

              door·mat (dôr'măt', dōr'-)
              n.
              A mat placed before a doorway for wiping the shoes.
              Slang. One who submits meekly to domination or mistreatment by others.

              Since we are using the slang meaning, this could mean "One who submits meekly (with humility)". Are we against someone submitting? Some people are. There are people who do SM, and believe that D/s in any form is abusive treatment. If someone desires that a person be submissive to them, but says "Oh but I don't want you to be a doormat", and it refers to this possible definition to me that says the person is not comfortable with what they are doing. They want their hamburger, but want to be considered a vegetarian at the same time. Guilt guilt guilt.

              The other definition is mistreatment. What is mistreatment, or how do you treat someone properly? One of the synonyms is the wonderful word "Abuse", which is one of those delightful words that gets tossed around much like "Terrorist", "God's will", and various other words that seem more intended to stop discussion than to inform as you might notice by the hush that falls over the crowd when they are spoken. I believe that individual experiences have to be examined in order to really know how someone needs to be treated, and that the person needs to be trusted enough to let them decide for themselves what works for them.

              Here is a facinating, non fetish oriented read about being a doormat from someone who seems to be happy in their role in life.
              www.boloji.com/ramblings/152.htm
              • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                Mon, June 16, 2008 - 6:32 PM
                Very few words used in BDSM are used in their Webster's Dictionary definition.

                Doormats are people with little or no self esteem who are willing to submit to abusive relationships (meaning mistreatment, not SM or D/s) because of their lack of esteem. They are often dysfunctional people who cannot hold a job, manage their day to day relationships, etc. The abusers (not nice SM or D/s tops but people who take advantage of doormats or others with shaky self esteem) like to pretend it's a nice D/s relationship, but in actuallity, they add to the lack of esteem and make the doormat even more dependent and helpless than they were originally.

                Domina
                • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                  Mon, June 16, 2008 - 6:53 PM
                  Domina, do you define helpless and dependent as negative qualities? It seems as though you do. How, then, do you reconsile those as negative qualities to a relationship that has consentual non-consent? Or does it depend on the state the submissive party was in before entering the relationship?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Submissive or a doormat

                    Mon, June 16, 2008 - 8:03 PM
                    Yes, Charles, I feel that helpless, non-functional, and dependent are negative qualities.

                    I find spousal abuse to be a negative quality.

                    And no, I've seen relationships where the so-called dominant broke down and demeaned the "submissive" until that person was a non-functional lump.

                    I have no idea why you feel that it's desirable to take a mentally damaged person and make them even more dependent and useless than they already are, but in my book, people who take advantage of damaged people are abusers.

                    Domina
                    • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                      Mon, June 16, 2008 - 11:12 PM
                      My vanilla friends generally think anyone who would want to be in a submissive role, is automatically mentally damaged and falls into the description you have. That is part of what has made it difficult in being out to my friends and family. Even if I keep my friends, they never quite look at me the same way again. Taking vanilla values and applying it to this lifestyle really doesn't go well. Spousal abuse, D/s abuse, abuse everywhere...it's far more relative than people seem to give it credit for being. If we're going to use these vanilla terms, we might as well call ourselves "Sick fucks" and get it over with. I know a fair number of people who already do just that. The odd question is, do we have to do it for your sake, Domina, as well as the vanillas? I would hope we would try to stick together and support each other in our differences.

                      More fun with words:
                      de·pen·dent (dĭ-pĕn'dənt)
                      adj.
                      2. Subordinate.

                      In a position of subordination: collateral, subject, subordinate, subservient.

                      And to further understand this word:

                      sub·ser·vi·ent (səb-sûr'vē-ənt)
                      adj.
                      Excessively eager to serve or obey: menial, obsequious, servile, slavish.
                    • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                      Mon, June 16, 2008 - 11:18 PM
                      "And no, I've seen relationships where the so-called dominant broke down and demeaned the "submissive" until that person was a non-functional lump."

                      I personally don't have a lump fetish, but my first question would be is the lump a happy lump? This of course is assuming that the person feels comfortable and safe giving an honest answer. I have seen my share of abuse victems as well (I.E. someone who has been treated in a way that makes them unhappy despite their making it clear that said treatment makes them unhappy), and you can usually tell without even asking.
                • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                  Mon, June 16, 2008 - 7:08 PM
                  Domina:
                  "Very few words used in BDSM are used in their Webster's Dictionary definition."
                  Several questions I have.
                  a) Are you sure they aren't?
                  b) Might it not be that people twist words to suit their own meaning and mores?
                  c) Why aren't they used in their Webster's definition? We have a perfectly good english language, isn't it enough to express meaning correctly?

                  I find this statement highly suspect, as churches are well known for making interpretations of what is written until there are umpteen million different churches each with their own value system. Do you know that the "Homosexuality is an abomination" quote is not actually from a passage about homosexual practices in the bible at all, but a gross misinterpretation of what was a "nude men's non-sexual idol worship" that was condemned as an abomination? I say to hell with whatever someone meant last year when they said "A slave is someone who sucks my cock and polishes my car", and use the words as they were meant to be used so we know what is being talked about. Someone I respect greatly in the local scene made a comment to me about forums recently, that (as well as I can remember to quote him) "If you make a post about how to design a system, or build a tool, you might not get very many responses. If you make a post about 'What does it mean to be submissive' everyone comes out of the woodwork to post, because there is no knowlege or expertise needed in order for someone to state their opinion on the topic." If we can't even use a common language because everyone has their own idea on what the words mean, and it's contained within their private dictionary in their head, well I suppose this topic is pretty much a loss to come to any kind of clear resolution.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Submissive or a doormat

                    Mon, June 16, 2008 - 8:06 PM
                    Unfortunately, no one at Websters bothers to ask people in the BDSM scene what they use the word to mean. Language is ever evolving.

                    BDSM is not a church. If you find it so, then that's your interpretation.

                    Domina
                    • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                      Mon, June 16, 2008 - 11:22 PM
                      Actually, the topic of making Edges a church was jokingly brought up today at a munch. Apparently it's been talked about in the past in terms of what would qualify, as churches tend to get treated nicely by the US Gvmt.
                      • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                        Mon, June 16, 2008 - 11:52 PM
                        I think we all know that we can't run to the dictionary for definitions reguarding this lifestyle, because the definitions are based on the vanilla lifestyle, however being in this lifestyle I have a general sence of what the words mean without looking them up. I think if you want to make sure that you and the person you're having a conversation with are on the same page just ask them.
                        • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                          Tue, June 17, 2008 - 12:44 AM
                          I actually think it is possible to use Webster definitions to describe things in this lifestyle, because while Vanillas may not approve of what we do, we can still use their words to describe it. There is a big difference between using a Vanilla definition to describe ourselves, and a Vanilla standard to judge us by. "Consentual nonconsent" is an example that borrows a Vanilla definition and describes how we might do things in BDSM circles, without having to cross any wires in the dictionary and blow up poor Webster (or me for that matter).
                          • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                            Tue, June 17, 2008 - 1:06 AM
                            Try looking up sophist, tiresome and pedantic.
                            • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                              Tue, June 17, 2008 - 9:39 AM
                              uncool Michael. Frankly, I've been disturbed at the trend in this tribe since Charles came in. While his style and points seem to be differently aligned from others, people seem to be exceedingly rude to him when he always seems to be polite, if rather persistent. If you don't agree, do it as debate, not as an insult. If you can't do that, don't respond. At least he seems to put thought and time into his posts, which I see a lack of in too many of the groups I'm in.
                              • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                                Wed, June 18, 2008 - 12:08 AM
                                Thank you, Mercedes. I do intend to continue popping in from time to time, to ask questions, or give my point of view. I have been asked by friends at times "Why do you bother to post if people on message boards have rigid, narrow views, and are prone to criticism of each other?". I mulled this over. It is because not all posters fit this description, and certainly fewer on tribes than on any other message board. If I was to move out of the bay area to some remote place, it might be my only refuge for discussions on these topics aside from with anyone I had a romantic involvement at the time. It is not my only refuge for them however, and if it got bad enough I suppose I would head elsewhere. In the meantime, there are still friendly faces and so I continue to pop in now and again.
                              • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                                Wed, June 18, 2008 - 7:21 AM
                                Mercedes,

                                Trust me, I wasn't being rude, I was simply speaking the truth.

                                SOPHIST - Charles plays semantic games with words to keep the debate centered around him, his definitions change when someone finally backs him into a corner. He isn't interested in learning, he is here to posture.

                                Tiresome - Charles wants to play the outsider, the only "real" serious "master" who isn't a player like the rest of us, the victim that we are all attacking. For anyone who knows Domina, she has been restrained I think as have I. If anyone wanted to tear him down, it would be easy and none of us have. He simply is an attention junky who wants everything centered around him and uses this to reinforce his self image as the real dominant surrounded by jealous want-to-bes. Notice how anytime a submisive woman says anthing he is obsequious?

                                Pedantic - If one uses the classic definition of "book learning" I would be wrong but in the more general use, he bases his experience on a tiny handful of failed relationships and despite hearing from many who have long term lifelong relationships under their belt, he refuses to either learn, listen, or engage them in questioning. Instead he retreats to the dictionary and changes the debate to once again center around him.

                                At what point does "persistance" begin to bother YOU?

                                "I've been disturbed at the trend in this tribe since Charles came in"

                                HMMMM, yes, it must be us "meanies" who are causing this.

                                "people seem to be exceedingly rude to him when he always seems to be polite"

                                Exceedingly rude? REALLY? As for Charles being polite, he doesn't come out and say someone is an asshole directly but most of his posts as I stated above are filled with subtle slams against anyone who isn't as "extreme, serious, dominant, whatever" as he is.

                                Some of us just aren't doormats who take shit from others, some of us want to make peace no matter what the cost.
                                • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                                  Wed, June 18, 2008 - 5:02 PM
                                  I have to agree with Michael. It's really annoying when someone keeps asking the same idiotic question hoping to get a different answer. And Charles seems to want the attention. He'll do anything to get it.

                                  Domina
                                • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                                  Wed, June 18, 2008 - 5:57 PM
                                  Eh, I just ignore what I don't like. But I think personal attacks create a space in a tribe that allows it more and more. I don't really care who or what Charles is or what he wants. Let him as his questions, ignore him if you don't want to talk about it.

                                  > Some of us just aren't doormats who take shit from others, some of us want to make peace no matter what the cost.
                                  If you think I'm a doormat, you seriously don't have a clue about me. But, I do pick my battles. And I do speak out when I need to. I don't want name calling in every tribe I'm in. Just ignore his threads. Don't bring more negativity in where it doesn't need to be. It never goes well. I'd much rather ignore someone than have to read non-stop posts with people insulting them. Yes, I can ignore them, but it just creates momentum for more ugliness and more flame wars. If that's how you want to spend your time? Well, that's your own choice. If you don't want him around, ask the moderator to leave. But I don't want this crap in the tribe, that's for sure.
                                  • Unsu...
                                     

                                    Re: Submissive or a doormat

                                    Wed, June 18, 2008 - 8:59 PM
                                    Ummm excuse me...but this thread wasn't about Charles...I started this thread on another subject. Could we PLEASE get back to our regulary scheduled program? Please don't make me get out my can of Whoop Ass. I'm not afraid to use it. *hits submit*
                                • Re: Submissive or a doormat

                                  Wed, June 18, 2008 - 9:33 PM
                                  "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. "

                                  This summs it up for me, and anyone who wants to live this lifestyle one way or another has my blessing so long as the people involved are happy doing it. No one is more or less real than another, we just sometimes want different things. I have not always been respected for my right to have differing views, but I have and do continue to respect the right of others to have views that differ from my own. Not everyone has said that happiness is an adequate measurement of whether a situation is abusive or not, and I may not like it, but I will not attack the individual for having views that differ from my own. I do not bow to intimidation, and for all I know this may come off as posturing. I don't really care how it comes off because I certainly won't be badgered into agreeing with any particular point of view. I hope the discussion gets back on track.

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